Observations from another hobby in the Wall Street Journal
The Wall Street Journal yesterday had an article about coin collecting. Its a different hobby but several of the points discussed apply to our hobby as well (see my highlights). These are ‘truths’ for any legitimate collectible. Some, both the good about getting knowledge and dealing with reputable sources, and the bad - forgeries and misrepresented items are true in Scouting collectibles as well. The comments to this article pointed out that in coin collecting now, even some of the encapsulated packages are being faked.
How to Cash In on Rare Coins
By ANGIE WONG
George Lim began his coin and banknote collection 30 years ago with a single note, the first 10,000 Singapore dollar bill he received. “As soon as I made that amount, I saved it to remember it,” says Mr. Lim, a Singaporean real-estate developer, whose collection today includes over 100 rare coins and banknotes.
NGC (Numistmatic Guaranty Corporation)
The 1910 Yunnan Spring Dollar
Mr. Lim plans to auction 68 coins and notes from his collection in Hong Kong on Aug. 22. He hopes to cash in on growing interest in collectibles from mainland Chinese buyers who’ve already pushed up the price of rare stamps, wines and art in recent months.
The lots in the Hong Kong auction will focus on Southeast Asian and Chinese coins and banknotes. One item of note is a rare Yunnan Spring dollar dated 1910 with an unusual spelling mistake embossed on the coin. Mr. Lim spoke with Angie Wong in Hong Kong about collecting etiquette and how to safeguard yourself from picking up a fake. The following interview has been edited.
WSJ: What do you look for when starting a collection?
Mr. Lim: Rarity and quality. Quality is basically the condition of the coin, who commissioned the coin and when it was produced. But if the coin is rare, then the wear and tear isn’t as important, especially if only one or two survives.
WSJ: Do you think it is good to hoard a collection or sell it?
Mr. Lim: This is only a hobby. There are collectors who keep all the good stuff and leave nothing for others to collect. I think if you are collecting, you must release something from time to time [so other collectors can enjoy them]. I wanted to collect China silver coins, but all the top China silver coins are going into one person’s hands. So I had to go for Chinese gold coins instead.
WSJ: How do you know when to sell?
Mr. Lim: Let the market decide the price. Watch the auctions to see what is selling. Also know that auctions goes up and down with the economy.
WSJ: What tips do you have for someone who wants to start collecting?
Mr. Lim: Newcomers, especially those interested in Chinese coin collecting, need a base knowledge. Read lots of books on the topic. Get to know what each coin is about, and the story behind it. Talk to dealers as well.
WSJ: What about forgeries?
Mr. Lim: It is very common for forgeries in China, especially if the coin is worth a lot. The best thing to do is safeguarding yourself by buying coins approved by a recognized third party grading service.
More fakes from the Phillipines
eBay seller freedomfifty2k has been out for a while with more fake Boy Scout patches produced in the Philippines. He’s had some Canal Zone Council 1960s era canoe race activity patches but now he’s running a lodge 391 Chiriqui fake flap and a fake of the Camp El-Vol-Can patch. See below. His story is that these came from a Scouter who was a US Navy Chief that served in Vietnam. Doubtful. He says these patches were “worn by members of the a Boy Scouts of Canal Zone, Order of the Arrow (OA) Chiriqui Lodge 391, CZ Panama.” NOT Oh well. Buyer beware. It looks like folks are on to these not being real based upon bidding but certainly not from anything this seller is saying. eBay benefits financially from these fakes so they won’t do much to stop them which leaves it up to the hobby.
Fake El Vol Can patch
Boy Scout camp El Volcan fake patch
The real El-Vol-Can 1950 patch - white flock printing on blue felt. (This is from my collection. The piece that’s really interesting, IMHO, is the envelope corner from Canal Zone Council from 1950.)
Real Boy Scout Camp El Volcan patch from 1950
Fake Lodge 391 Chiriqui flap
Fake OA Lodge 391 flap
More on the 227 Wetassa R1 fake from England
Earlier we blogged about the surfacing of some fake felt OA patches on eBay, specifically including the Illinois lodge 227 Wetassa. Their first issue patch, an R1, is one of the classic, toughest issues from Illinois. We know the buyers of the two that came up within two weeks of each other. The first buyer knew it was a fake but he had a real one and wanted the fake for his collection. He’s gotten it in and told us, besides being crude, that it is MUCH larger than the original. Cute. That will make telling the real and fake apart. For the second one, the buyer was not aware that it was a fake. We don’t know if he’s going through with the purchase or not.
New 227 Wetassa R1 fake from England - and 182 Lone Wolf fake
This is an interesting piece that just surfaced through eBay - THE venue for fakes and mis-represented items. (I don’t see that in their marketing material but there is an increasing recognition that eBay is also THE fencing venue for stolen property but that’s another story).
Back to the item - We were asked by several collectors this past week regarding what was listed as a vintage 227 Wetassa patch. Specifically it was represented as an R1. We have handled two of these, out of a known population of about 6, plus have seen the R0.5 - same design but on very dark blue felt.
What had us looking was this was close but just didn’t seem right. The original design is crude but not this crude. Destry, who’s from Illinois, got to checking what else this person was selling and there were other felt patches but in the militaria area. Our conclusion is that these were/are hand-painted reproductions. Which makes it interesting but not the real deal (and it sold for $160 +/-, not the $10,000 that the real one brings.)
Below is the picture of the patch that was just sold:
This is the image of the real piece, from John Pannell’s OAimages.com site, of the patch in Dave Pede’s collection.
Addition: 3/31/09:
Over the past couple of weeks another one of these surfaced, also coming from Yorkshire, England but under another seller id:
This one is much closer but still wrong. Note the problems with the ‘A’s in Wetassa compared to the original. Also, the fakers are having problems with the red ‘WWW’ and the fuzziness of the raccoon within the arrowhead.
What has just popped up is a Lone Wolf A out of Oslo, Norway:
Paul Myers, an expert on Indiana OA amongst many other things, brought this to our attention. As Destry mentioned:
the guy is getting good. Another fake high end OA felt from overseas. Check his other stuff, there are fakes military bullions and even another hand painted leather sqaudron patch. This is the same guy that sold the 227 felts, just operating under another name. I did another Patch-L posting about it, just letting the boys know.
Here’s a picture of an original:
Actually, I’m thinking they are making their fake based upon our picture because of the distortion they have in their attempt to reproduce the number. We have had this up for sale at set price and they could have seen the high value thus making it a target. What they are missing is that this was done on composition material, not felt.
Here we go again - Grand Teton KRS when the council didn’t even exist
A friend just forwarded a link from eBay of the sale of a khaki and red strip for Grand Teton Council. After looking at it, my first thought was “Give me a f’ing break.”
The description says “This Auction is for a Grand Teton Council Thank You patch. Old School Khaki and Red Full Strip”
Now I don’t know what a “Thank You patch” is. I’m not sure what is meant by “Old School”, but khaki and red strips (KRS) were discontinued in 1953. He also has a red and white strip like this up that he also calls “Old School”.
More importantly, this council did not come into existence until 1993 as a result of a merger with Tendoy Area Council and Teton Peaks. Further, one can’t tell if this was issued by the council or not. As for “Thank you”, I’d certainly say that to anyone who would pay me $49.99, what he’s asking, for a patch that cost $1 to make.
Time to move on, and not bid….
Wild fakes out of Hong Kong
At one level, patches coming out of Hong Kong or Taiwan could be real issues but certainly not this one. It was put up by seller: 1414yin
Its title:
Very Small OA Lodge Twin Pine Boy Scout Patch
Well parts of it are true. It is very small, 1 inch by 2 inches. It is a patch. It says “Twin Pine” which if you were from Detroit area in the 1960s was a major local dairy but is not the name of a Boy Scout council. But it is not “OA Lodge” nor “Boy Scout.”
The seller has many other badges for sale in their store. Most are non-USA so maybe they are real but one has to wonder.
Now we have fake camp patches
Coming from “patch–world” of Lingen, Germany on eBay we now have fakes of camp patches. This one is for the Transatlantic Council Camp Mohawk, their summer camp based in England, for 1957. Design is close but not close enough. Of course the description makes no mention that this was recently made, not 50 years ago.
We’re having trouble keeping up with all of the fakes coming out. We’re posting more of this guy’s fakes. No where in the titles of any of these does he indicate they are fakes or re-makes or private issues.
These include the 2000 Philmont staff arrowhead, 1953 National Jamboree jacket patch, region8 patch, 428 R1, 383 Tahosa dance team patch, 146 Tichora event first flap. The list is long and dubious.
More OA Fakes - 36 Mitigwa
Man, this is becoming the fake report. Another day, another one to report and this one even more egregious.
eBay seller PITTKING describes this as:
oa 36 mitigwa RARE
this patch is the lodge before the neche lodge and is mint and very rare
The lodge has no known real issues. If it did, they certainly wouldn’t be from overseas embroidery as the lodge went out in 1950. This is a hoax. A misrepresentation. Its currently bid to $36. If this were what the seller purported it to be it would be 100 times that. The problem is, its not represented as a fake, and it probably cost $1 - $3 to make. At such a profit, these kinds of scams will keep going on. What does it do to the hobby when the buyer of such an item finds out later it is a fake? That won’t be good.
Actually one could argue this is a fake of a fake as it is a twill version of a solid fake shown on John’s oaimages.com site.
New Lodge 500 Fake First Issue
A quick heads up - from a seller on eBay, out of Spain of all places, is offering up the following patch from old New York lodge 500 - Ona Yote Kaonaga (proper spacing for the lodge name):
Click on the image to get an expanded look. It is not the original, which can be seen on the OA Images site.
Notice that the original is on twill right rough (TRR) as well as swiss-style embroidery. The seller of the fake, pwaitor29, titles his listing:
O NA YOTE KA O NAGA LODGE 500 SCOUT PATCH
No where does he mention its a modern patch or a fake. Buyer beware. This is not good for the hobby.