Collecting Boy Scout Council Shoulder Patches – CSPs

Posted on September 14th, 2023 in Baden-Powell,BSA Info,CSP,Jamborees,Legacy Interviews,RWS by ramore

We are handling the council shoulder patch collection for long time collector Bob Walton of North Carolina. The collection is special in it’s own right. It is among the top 5 (3?) such collections in the country and arguably the deepest in some of its specific themes. It is what we call a “generational collection” as it represents over 20 years of collecting. His collection is near complete in first issue CSPs. I call these the “rookie cards” of the hobby. His collection includes virtually all of the toughest of first issues. It is one of the most extensive Eagle Scout CSP collections we have ever seen (and we’ve seen a lot.)

But I’m burying the lede here. What is the most significant message here is that we are not selling this for Bob. We are selling it for Cape Fear Council, BSA. Bob has donated this whole collection to the Scouts for the council’s restricted endowment fund! He will be helping the hobby as today’s collectors will have a chance to pick up needs that rarely come available as there are so few. He will also be helping to assure that Scouting continues going forward developing today’s youth that will become tomorrow’s leaders!

While Bob was here we shot a couple of interviews. The first part discusses his collecting history and a few of the special issues in his collection.

Attending the 1957 Jamborees

In the first part Bob mentions starting his collecting in 1981 at the BSA National Jamboree that year. This wasn’t his first jamboree. Bob attended the 1957 BSA National Jamboree AND the 1957 World Jamboree! We did a second part where we go over those experiences and what it was like to start from Valley Forge and head to England and Europe.

The 1957 World Jamboree was an “extra” jamboree (my term). The prior World Jamboree was in 1955. Normally jamborees are four years apart. What made 1957 special is it was the 50th anniversary of the founding of Scouting and the 100th anniversary of the birth of Lord Baden Powell. Bob recounts seeing the young Queen Elizabeth and her husband Prince Phillip as they toured the entire jamboree site as well as other signatory experiences that such an event offers to the world’s youth.

Here’s the video.

Collecting the patches before CSPs

Posted on August 27th, 2019 in CSP,Hobby Trends,KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

One of the most widely collected areas in our hobby are council shoulder patches (CSPs). Every Scout can wear one. Most can be acquired for very little cost and are actively traded. With councils issuing so many special versions for recognition and such it can make collecting them a challenge. They are soon coming up on their 50th birthday as they became official uniform wear circa 1972.

The thing is, CSPs aren’t the first council (or community) identification shoulder wear. That would be what are now referred to as “Lettered Shoulder Patches” or LSPs. For the longest of times we referred to this whole area of collecting as red and white strips (RWS). I think it is because they were the patches, I’m dating myself, we wore on our Scout uniforms. The thing is, there were colors before RWS but that pre-dates almost all of today’s collectors. Here is some history on these and why they are so fun to collect.

Why collect these?

  • They are fun. Although plain in colors and design, they are easy to understand and distinctive in their own way. Some turn out easy to come by and others can be excrutiatingly hard to even see let alone acquire.
  • They tell the story of Scouting. Many councils never had CSPs. We too often forget that council boundaries were set not only before the internet but before the interstate. As mobility improved, territories (think councils) could come together to pool resources and professional talent.
  • They add depth to a collection. There was a transition where most issues were without state identification to then including the state(s). This seemed to have happened in the late 1960s. And mistakes did happen although usually are quite rare.
  • They show the reach of BSA truly spanning the globe where American’s were present.
  • There are variations but not anywhere to the extent we have today with CSPs. For most councils, there was just one version of lettered shoulder wear.
  • They haven’t been faked much. And the fakes that have been made are distinctive from the real patches as these were last issued in the age of cotton thread rather and Swiss-style loom embroidery.

Why so tough?

I have been told that a “full order” could be as few as a dozen strips with the minimum order being half that. That is, a council could order as few as six of one lettered shoulder patch.

For some of these, they are “gauze backed” which might well mean that they were stiched up one at a time for what was needed. For some of these, there may have only been one or two patchs made.

Some of these were only worn by council level professional staff and volunteers. Some were used for contingents to national jamborees and a few for world jamborees.

What is their history?

For the first 18 years of BSA, there was no authorized community or council identification. It was not until 1928 that they came into the catalog for some communities and 1930 for councils. I am of the opinion it was due to regional and national trainging conferences for professional staff that drove the need for council identification. Up to that point, other than world jamborees there were not multi-council gatherings. If everyone is from the same council, why does one need council identification?

From the first collecting book for red and whites by Art Hyman and Rob Kutz:

  • 1928 Community strips authorized (khaki and red, KRS )
  • 1930 Council strips authorized (khaki and red) for council Scouters only
  • Early 1940’s size increased and other colors authorized
    • Dark blue and gold (yellow) for Cub Scouts (BYS)
    • White and blue (WBS) and blue and white (BWS) for Sea Scouts
    • Green and brown (GBS) for Explorer Scouts
    • Blue and blue for (BBS) for Air Scouts
  • Starting in 1952, the specific uniform colors were phased out (except for Sea Scouts) converting everyone to red and white (RWS).
  • 1972 discontinued although a few councils kept using a version and some commerative or fundraising issues have come out since.

Actually the hobby identifies these days the difference between the pre-World War 2 uniform color of “tan kahki” to post WW2 color of “green khaki”. The earlier ones are referred to as tan and red strips (TRS).

Why the transition to CSPs?

From a regional retired Scout Executive who as an SE at the time of transition in 1972 from red and whites to CSPs he said that councils could get stuck with inventory for a unit that came and went. Plus they took up a lot of space to store as inventory. With CSPs there only needed to be one patch for everyone. Now I think the Scouts lost something with this transition. I think it would be interesting if we went back to community strips and with current patch making technology, it might be well doable.

Other resources:

If you are a member of the International Scout Collectors Association, ISCA, you can download for free the Council Shoulder Insignia guide for free which inculdes full chapters on collecting lettered shoulder patches. Visit their web-site at ISCA Website. Go to the Members Only area for the CSI guide.

Examples from my collection:

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

New FSC Boundaries Established for Michigan

Posted on November 9th, 2011 in BSA Info,CSP,Hobby Trends,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

The Board for the new council here in Michigan approved at its first meeting new Field Service Council (FSC) boundaries. FSCs are a new concept in the Scouting structure that we’re developing. Although there is one legal entity there are at this time four (4) local delivery entities who’s primary purpose is unit support. The Coordinating Council, also sometimes referred to as the “Administrative Council”, integrates back office functions and achieves economies of scale that we could not achieve as individual councils. Basically we have been silos working within our boundaries. One of the goals of the Crossroads Recommendation is to not compete with each other but compete  to bring more youth to Scouting.

Here’s the new boundaries approved at the meeting. When will these be effective? Soon but still being worked out.

Note – the boundaries between FSCs is dotted. These will flex over time depending upon who can best serve the needs of a given unit. Within Field Service Councils we may well have additional Community Service Councils that are even more focused on unit service – MMM – membership, manpower and of course money. We’ve had discussions where our shoulder wear will change to the community level. Not as specific as red and white community strips that collectors know but more specific than council shoulder strips we’re used to seeing.

 

The criteria used are on this slide. The Unit Serving Executives to Total Available Youth ratio is about a third better than the current ‘gold standard’ for the national dashboard metrics in Journey to Excellence.

 

Troop Specific CSPs

Posted on August 6th, 2010 in CSP,Hobby Trends by ramore

One of the nights at the Jamboree TOR Bob Salcido of California and I were comparing patches. Some of the JSPs are hard to separate from CSPs. We were looking at a pair of Minsi Trails patches and concluded they were CSPs for the 100th anniversary and not JSPs. Upon closer inspection, we noticed that we had different troops. Over the next week I looked for them and came up with four. Talking with Bob later he said he ran into their Exec and the Exec said he was not aware of these. Does anyone know any more specifics? Is this a new trend?

Here are the four I found (Bob’s was one of these troops):

400 and counting – 2010 CSPs and more

Posted on May 25th, 2010 in CSP,Jamborees,JSP by ramore

I’m now woefully out of date as about two weeks ago I was talking with Bill Loeble. Bill along with Steve Austin are the primary authors of the Council Shoulder Insignia book, the standard catalog for CSPs and other shoulder patches. Bill said they have over 400 different CSPs listed for 2010/100th anniversary of Scouting. The reason I’m saying woefully out of date is that after this conversation we had a Scout-o-rama. In talking with one of our DE’s he figured that our local council, Great Sauk Trail, is up to seventeen (17) CSPs for 2010. Ouch! If you have information about your or other councils, please post here or e-mail Bill (ask me for his e-mail as I don’t want him to get spammed by web-bots).

Bill also reported that he’s figuring there will be over 2,000 JSPs. I mentioned that we thought that the number of JSPs was going to top out back in 1997 after all of the council mergers. Boy were we wrong. Bill figures there were around 1,200 JSPs at the last Jamboree even though we were down to 310 councils.

There will likely be over 5,000 council/lodge issues for 2010 between CSPs, JSPs, and OA patches. One could spend their lifetime collecting this year alone (although it would make for an interesting collection).

Off and running – 100th Anniverary Patches Ramping Up

Posted on February 8th, 2010 in Camps,CSP,Hobby News,Hobby Trends,Insignia,Jamborees,JSP,OA,Rank by ramore

Last week I was at my Scout office for a meeting and stopped by the trading post. They have the new boy rank patches out commerating the 100th anniversary year of the BSA. I think these are neat but the quality control is poor. There are at least three major varieties in this group alone. Some appear to have been made by the BSA. Others have ‘Made in China’ stickers on the back. The latter is a separate sore point but we’ll leave that for another blog. Anyway, variety collectors are going to have a field day figuring these out. I’m told there’s an Eagle patch as well but I’ve not seen it. I’ve also been told that Scout shops are to have returned their inventory of the regular items so as to be replaced with these 2010 pieces.

Then Destry and I went to the Indy TOR this past weekend. Their hospitality was great as always (except for the 9″ of snow.) Several councils now have out 2010 patches. That got me asking around how many items do you think we’ll have for the 100th anniversary? By “items” I mean regular issue pieces – CSPs, JSPs, OA items. I’m figuring it will be up to 5,000. Could be more. And this is not counting camp and camporee items or Jamboree staff items. One could spend a lifetime just to collect this year. Also, I was hearing quotes for “rare, limited edition” varieties at huge prices. Councils and lodges could kill a good thing. If you know of some egregious abuses, please pass on the comment. Thanks.

11,500 CSPs and counting

Posted on August 14th, 2007 in CSP by Roy

That’s the number of different issues collector, and National OA Committee member, Bill Loeble reported to me at the 2007 NCLS. This is issues, not twill varieties or plastic back/cloth back differences.

In the early days of CSP collecting, pre-1980, we paid attention to “twill left rough” (TLR) or “twill right smooth” (TRS) because there were so few different issues. We have pretty much gotten away from this making Bill’s accomplishment even that much more impressive. Generally it is good that we have gotten away from technical varieties that were merely the result of production runs.

We do run the risk though of losing our history of first issue CSPs where twill direction or backing makes a difference between truly the first issue and later runs. Several that come to mind include Longhorn T1 cloth back – the true first issue – much harder than the later runs of this patch or Scenic Trails TLR or…. the list is long. Further, most, but not all, first issue CSPs were on TLR cloth. There isn’t really a good book on these that I’m aware of. The Ellis/Jones/Austin book is the best but even they don’t have all of this documentation. You have to go back to the early issue catalogs from the guys who ran the Illinois Traders’ Association (ITA) who were documenting this as it happened. Most of the web-sites are incomplete as well with respect to this information.

I am working on my CSP entry for my shopping cart. As of 1998 there were 5,450 issues in the catalog. Thus, we’ve basically doubled that number in 8 1/2 years. That works out to 650 issues per year. With 320 councils on average during those years that means 2 issues per council per year. No wonder there are so few national all issue collectors (but there are some!)

I collect all of the Michigan issues where I do admit to collecting varieties of twills, border, backing, etc. I have fun with it. Just going after Michigan gives me challenge keeping up with what’s been issued and special issues.

I had a lot of fun putting together a first issue collection (and why I did research on true first issues.) This area continues to bring collectors in as many of them can easily be obtained but then there are some real bears to track down let alone acquire.


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