Got into a discussion with Pokagon 110 alumnus Jim Scherbarth of Illinois about Pokagon’s first flap. We both agreed that most folks get it wrong and as a result don’t have the true first flap. This came up because we were both at the Columbus TOR where someone had the wrong Pokagon cataloged as the S1. Then again later this week someone asked for an offer on a collection. In it was supposedly a Pokagon S1 but when looking at the picture, it was not.

Here’s a picture of what is commonly thought to be the S1 but is NOT!!!

Digging deeper I went to OAimages.com. What’s on there today is the wrong patch. I went to the book First Flaps in Color. The one pictured there is wrong. Finally I had to get to the first edition of First Flaps by Morley, Topkis & Gould to get a picture of the correct one. Arapahoe 2’s completely mixed up in their sequencing of the issues but this was being done just on Dave Leubitz’s recollection.

What Jim has pointed out to me over the years is that the true S1 first flap is just like the Chief’s issue, S2, but with red arrow. Unfortunately that does not help most folks have never seen the Chief’s issue. Its one of the rarest patches in the hobby.

Here’s the S2 chief’s issue:

Now here’s a picture of the true Pokagon first flap:

and a close-up of the tail:

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Jason Spangler, the Santee Swapper, just sent over a link from his blog about suspicious 2011 WJ patches are that are surfacing. They’re bringing some incredible dollars but I think the points raised, slight but noticeable variations in stitch patterns and borders, makes me think these are $3 bills (which don’t exist). Anyone got more insight or knowledge?

Here’s the link from the Patch Blanket blog – What’s with all the 2011 World Scout Jamboree border colors?

An image from his blog points out differences between what was confirmed to be handed out and what is surfacing. These kinds of differences should NOT exist with today’s embroidery techniques.

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Hopefully someone can fill in the history on this piece but neither Destry nor I have seen this brand of Boy Scout hatchet. Its from E. C. Simmons Keen Kutter out of St. Louis, MO and has a clear, but worn, etched First Class Badge (as was standard).  Destry says this company generally made work tools or hand implements, which includes hatchets, but again for skilled trades and workers. Very cool in a different sort of way.

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At this year’s ISCA Dallas Trade-o-ree Terry Grove presented one of the educational sessions on his research into Eagle Scout paper – letters, certificates, membership cards and more. We worked with Terry to record the session but have been struggling with YouTube time limits. YouTube’s now authorized us to post long form videos so here’s the both parts of Terry’s session. As an aside, these educational sessions are one of the great features of the Dallas TOR. Held at the end of January, TOR sponsors and hosts Ron Aldridge and Dave Thomas make sure folks have a good time. IMHO it is THE annual national show.

2011 ISCA Meeting presentation on Eagle Scout memorabilia — Part 1

Here’s the 2nd part:

Eagle Scout memorabilia presentation at 2011 ISCA Meeting — Part 2

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Working through the collection consigned to us in August we’re going through the next step after photographing each item. Thoughts include: fun, interesting, exciting. And….drudgery. First you break it down by 100s or alpha, then into 10’s, then into individual lodges or councils or camps or…..

Several years back Bill Topkis posed this question to me as we were working up parts of his and Dr. Morley’s collection, “How many patches have you (Roy) looked at?” I didn’t have a ready answer. First thought was over 100,000. But as Bill reflected that this is way too low. That his and Jeff’s collection had over 20,000 issues plus duplicates. He figured he  had looked at several 100,000 patches over the years and patches area a hobby for him, not a business.

We’re quickly closing in on our quarter-millionth picture for listings, auction and web-site. That’s 250,000 patch pictures. That’s just from 2003. Many of those pictures are group shots. Many more patches were looked at but never pictured or weren’t in our hands.

At a jamboree or NOAC it is common to look at over 4,000 patches/day even though we have fewer councils and fewer lodges. Going through a multi-1,000 patch collection can be just an afternoon project. A good trade-o-ree can mean looking at 10,000 patches/day. This isn’t even counting eBay viewing.

The fun part with this collection is seeing so many new issues even though I’ve been on several Jamboree and NOAC staffs. The other thought that comes to mind is how well the patch armorers are doing, i.e., the patch manufacturers. We the collectors have been part of the problem as we start putting different borders on everything whether justified or not.

So back to Bill’s question-easily half-million and may well be a million plus. Its one of the reasons we were asked to take over Blue Book. Oh well…back to sorting.

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We recently placed a 1924 World Jamboree merit badge sash with the first Eagle patch on it. We’ve been asked how one can identify such a thing. Well several ways but first some history.

Prior to the 1924 World Jamboree the BSA did not sell a merit badge sash. Scouts and Scouters, who could earn merit badges at that time, were left to their own devices. If you only had a few merit badges you would sew them on your shirt sleeve. If you had lots of merit badges, you could keep going up your sleeve. The Scouts DID sell a false sleeve, a snappable sleeve to wrap around your shirt sleeve that one could sew on more merit badges if they did not fit the shirt or if you did not want to wash the badges when you washed the shirt.

We have examples of home made sashes as well. Here’s an example of one that is almost a bandelero that goes over the shoulder and around the waist. Because of the type of badges on the sash, we know its a “teens era” sash.

Also, prior to 1924 there was no patch for the Eagle rank. There was only the medal.

What made the 1924 World Jamboree special, in Chief Scout Executive James West’s perspective, was that participation was limited due to the camp size and that there was going to be Scout competitions between countries. West wanted to win and to visually have the sharpest looking contingent. Thus he had made up an Eagle patch and tailored merit badge sashes so all were consistent.

So how can one tell if you have a 1924 sash or Eagle patch? Here’s a picture of one we just placed. Note on the Eagle patch where the tips of the gray scroll extend into the white oval. Later issues stop at the edge. Then on the sash, the patches were sewn onto the khaki cloth and THEN the border/piping for the sash was sewn. Thus the border covers the edges of the merit badges. These sashes exist as two-wide and three-wide.

Update: Terry’s helped point out a needed correction in my write-up:

Only the first aid merit badge is sewn onto the khaki.  The rest of the merit badges are actually part of the sash.  The merit badge sash was two ply.  The top ply was cut so that the merit badges (sewn together) could be sewn into the ply and become part of the ply. The border was then applied to finish the look all around the sash.

Close-up of how merit badges were sewn into the sash in 1924

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Recently on eBay there surfaced three patch blankets. This is a tale of how not to sell your Boy Scout patches. Not the eBay portion but before they got to eBay or to us.

First some history. These blankets surfaced around 1962-1963 when collector Paul Myers took this photograph of west Chicago Scouter Paul Price:

Mr. Price was an Owassippe lodge Garrision chapter member inducted in 1949. After he took the picture Paul M. lost track of Mr. Price. Paul believes Mr. Price had a brother in Phoenix. Mr. Price was not married and had no children. Paul M. remembers that Mr. Price’s stock trading items were Garrison chapter activity patches and old lodge 470 shark’s tooth odd-shape.

We bought two of the blankets and collector/dealer Frank Kern of Washington state bought the other one. Together they brought about $10,000 with our expectation to pull our needs and re-sell the rest to break even.

I talked with one of the sellers. He was very forthcoming in how they got the blankets. They attended an estate auction in southern Illinois north of St. Louis. They weren’t real knowledgeable about specific prices of Boy Scout patches but knew there was some collecting interest. Although prepared to go higher they bought the three blankets for $150. There was virtually no competition. There was a local collector interested in some box lots of more modern Boy Scout patches but not the blankets.

Now, I don’t begrudge these guys getting these blankets for this price. What was stupid was the family who had these and then used a local estate sale agent to sell them. The estate seller clearly did not know what they were doing, didn’t research it (they rarely do) and left thousands of dollars on the table which these guys handily picked up. The gentleman I talked with mentioned, “The house was auctioned for $6,000 and just one of the blankets brought almost that much money.”

So if you have Boy Scout patches you’re wanting to sell but aren’t sure what you have, get educated. Get advice, from us or other dealers. We’ll give you the truth. Sometimes its that the Region 10 patch that you were offered $100 for in 1969 won’t bring $20 today but more likely that you’ve got more value than you realize. We field these kinds of calls and e-mails all the time. Digital pictures work very well and if we need more clarification we’ll let you know and then advise on ways to sell.

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That was the question I received from collector friend Roger Schustereit of Texas who is helping out another friend that inherited a collection in 1998. As Roger asked:

I am sending this at the request of my friend, XX.  XX is the person who gave me the information on the origin of the 307 R3 I wrote the article on way back when.  It was his home that had the fire that left the patches smoke damaged &, when cleaned, the blue was not color fast.

Anyway, XX is now selling some Scout items on eBay (Akcent).  He wants to be fair to Uncle Sugar for tax purposes.  He inherited the items in 1998 & would like to know a general percentage Scout items have increased or decreased in value since 1998.  I had no idea, but I thought of you immediately.  If you can’t help, no one can.  I know you like a good challenge, so here is a great one.  Will appreciate any help you might offer.

Probably hoping for a simple answer all I could say was no such luck. It depends upon what one has.  Here’s my first response:

But it matters what he has. If he’s got Scout mugs – that’s 100% decline in value. Same for modern handbooks. If he’s got early 1950s OA, good stuff is up, common stuff is down. If its 70’s era OA, its flat to down. If its insignia, its flat to up. If its camp patches, its up to really up. If its CSPs its generally down but red&white community strips are up by a factor of 10 to 20 times higher. …..

Depends upon the area. I know I may be over analyzing but if he’s going to use my observation for tax purposes I need to be able to defend it. There are items that have pulled back from 5 years ago but are still twice what they were in 1998.

I then got into looking at his listings and made these notes:

I just looked at some of the items he has:

1998 value for the N/C slides – $2 – $3 each – now selling for $10 – $25
Philmont patch with segments – he’s asking $300. Fair market if sewn is $85 – $100. Price in 1998 – $150
Region 9 jewelry pieces – in 1998 $5/each – 2011 – $10 – $30 each
1950 Jambo canvas patch – 1998 $25 – 2011 $20
1953 Jambo patch – 1998 $25 – 2011 $20

1950 Jambo emb. patch – 1998 $40 – 2011 $25-$40 so either no change or a decline.

1955 Silber WJ buckle – 1998 $125-$150 – 2011 current bid is $52 may go to $75.

So depending upon what he’s got, his stuff has gone down 40% or gone up 600%. Its not one number. Now this is assuming he wants to be honest with the IRS. And they’re one group I’m honest with.

In reflecting on this further, back in 1998 one could buy community strips for $0.10 to $0.25 each. Now they can bring $3 – $30. And for those who are math challenged that’s a 3000% to 30,000% increase in 13 years from the low end. I’ll have to dig into this deeper for things like First Flaps. More later.

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