Collecting Boy Scout Council Shoulder Patches – CSPs

Posted on September 14th, 2023 in Baden-Powell,BSA Info,CSP,Jamborees,Legacy Interviews,RWS by ramore

We are handling the council shoulder patch collection for long time collector Bob Walton of North Carolina. The collection is special in it’s own right. It is among the top 5 (3?) such collections in the country and arguably the deepest in some of its specific themes. It is what we call a “generational collection” as it represents over 20 years of collecting. His collection is near complete in first issue CSPs. I call these the “rookie cards” of the hobby. His collection includes virtually all of the toughest of first issues. It is one of the most extensive Eagle Scout CSP collections we have ever seen (and we’ve seen a lot.)

But I’m burying the lede here. What is the most significant message here is that we are not selling this for Bob. We are selling it for Cape Fear Council, BSA. Bob has donated this whole collection to the Scouts for the council’s restricted endowment fund! He will be helping the hobby as today’s collectors will have a chance to pick up needs that rarely come available as there are so few. He will also be helping to assure that Scouting continues going forward developing today’s youth that will become tomorrow’s leaders!

While Bob was here we shot a couple of interviews. The first part discusses his collecting history and a few of the special issues in his collection.

Attending the 1957 Jamborees

In the first part Bob mentions starting his collecting in 1981 at the BSA National Jamboree that year. This wasn’t his first jamboree. Bob attended the 1957 BSA National Jamboree AND the 1957 World Jamboree! We did a second part where we go over those experiences and what it was like to start from Valley Forge and head to England and Europe.

The 1957 World Jamboree was an “extra” jamboree (my term). The prior World Jamboree was in 1955. Normally jamborees are four years apart. What made 1957 special is it was the 50th anniversary of the founding of Scouting and the 100th anniversary of the birth of Lord Baden Powell. Bob recounts seeing the young Queen Elizabeth and her husband Prince Phillip as they toured the entire jamboree site as well as other signatory experiences that such an event offers to the world’s youth.

Here’s the video.

Collecting Military Base Strips

Posted on November 19th, 2019 in KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

In prior posts, I’ve talked about collecting lettered shoulder insignia (LSI formerly known as collecting RWS – red and white strips). See here, here, and here. With our handling of the Bill Loeble collection we are offering the best military base strip (MBS) collection ever assembled. MBS are a specialized area of LSI. They look like community strips in most cases but actually reflect locations where the US, and the BSA, had presence around the world.

I view this as a highly legitimate, albeit tough, collecting area of our hobby. Most items were made in very limited quantities. Even to this day we are still discovering unknown issues even though they were in general last made in 1972 so folks have had 50 years or more to identify them

I recorded an informational video as it is easier to show issues and aspects of this area of collecting.

Collecting the world of these, and not sure anyone has ever completed this as I think Bill got the furthest, is a heck of a challenge but that’s what makes it fun. Some ways to start though might be:

  • Collect the bases in your state
  • Collect the bases in your region
  • Collect a single service branch
  • Collect just outside of the USA
  • Collect the red and white issues
  • Collect the odd colors that pre-date the red and whites (i.e., pre-1953).

They make a wonderful display. They’ve not been faked although there are some modern re-issues as council shoulder patches just don’t do justice for units at these locations. Have fun!

P.S. Some have asked where the ratings come from. We’re using the ones published by ISCA, the Interenational Scout Collectors Association. Here’s a link to their web-site and the guide. It is free to download for members.

Collecting the patches before CSPs

Posted on August 27th, 2019 in CSP,Hobby Trends,KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

One of the most widely collected areas in our hobby are council shoulder patches (CSPs). Every Scout can wear one. Most can be acquired for very little cost and are actively traded. With councils issuing so many special versions for recognition and such it can make collecting them a challenge. They are soon coming up on their 50th birthday as they became official uniform wear circa 1972.

The thing is, CSPs aren’t the first council (or community) identification shoulder wear. That would be what are now referred to as “Lettered Shoulder Patches” or LSPs. For the longest of times we referred to this whole area of collecting as red and white strips (RWS). I think it is because they were the patches, I’m dating myself, we wore on our Scout uniforms. The thing is, there were colors before RWS but that pre-dates almost all of today’s collectors. Here is some history on these and why they are so fun to collect.

Why collect these?

  • They are fun. Although plain in colors and design, they are easy to understand and distinctive in their own way. Some turn out easy to come by and others can be excrutiatingly hard to even see let alone acquire.
  • They tell the story of Scouting. Many councils never had CSPs. We too often forget that council boundaries were set not only before the internet but before the interstate. As mobility improved, territories (think councils) could come together to pool resources and professional talent.
  • They add depth to a collection. There was a transition where most issues were without state identification to then including the state(s). This seemed to have happened in the late 1960s. And mistakes did happen although usually are quite rare.
  • They show the reach of BSA truly spanning the globe where American’s were present.
  • There are variations but not anywhere to the extent we have today with CSPs. For most councils, there was just one version of lettered shoulder wear.
  • They haven’t been faked much. And the fakes that have been made are distinctive from the real patches as these were last issued in the age of cotton thread rather and Swiss-style loom embroidery.

Why so tough?

I have been told that a “full order” could be as few as a dozen strips with the minimum order being half that. That is, a council could order as few as six of one lettered shoulder patch.

For some of these, they are “gauze backed” which might well mean that they were stiched up one at a time for what was needed. For some of these, there may have only been one or two patchs made.

Some of these were only worn by council level professional staff and volunteers. Some were used for contingents to national jamborees and a few for world jamborees.

What is their history?

For the first 18 years of BSA, there was no authorized community or council identification. It was not until 1928 that they came into the catalog for some communities and 1930 for councils. I am of the opinion it was due to regional and national trainging conferences for professional staff that drove the need for council identification. Up to that point, other than world jamborees there were not multi-council gatherings. If everyone is from the same council, why does one need council identification?

From the first collecting book for red and whites by Art Hyman and Rob Kutz:

  • 1928 Community strips authorized (khaki and red, KRS )
  • 1930 Council strips authorized (khaki and red) for council Scouters only
  • Early 1940’s size increased and other colors authorized
    • Dark blue and gold (yellow) for Cub Scouts (BYS)
    • White and blue (WBS) and blue and white (BWS) for Sea Scouts
    • Green and brown (GBS) for Explorer Scouts
    • Blue and blue for (BBS) for Air Scouts
  • Starting in 1952, the specific uniform colors were phased out (except for Sea Scouts) converting everyone to red and white (RWS).
  • 1972 discontinued although a few councils kept using a version and some commerative or fundraising issues have come out since.

Actually the hobby identifies these days the difference between the pre-World War 2 uniform color of “tan kahki” to post WW2 color of “green khaki”. The earlier ones are referred to as tan and red strips (TRS).

Why the transition to CSPs?

From a regional retired Scout Executive who as an SE at the time of transition in 1972 from red and whites to CSPs he said that councils could get stuck with inventory for a unit that came and went. Plus they took up a lot of space to store as inventory. With CSPs there only needed to be one patch for everyone. Now I think the Scouts lost something with this transition. I think it would be interesting if we went back to community strips and with current patch making technology, it might be well doable.

Other resources:

If you are a member of the International Scout Collectors Association, ISCA, you can download for free the Council Shoulder Insignia guide for free which inculdes full chapters on collecting lettered shoulder patches. Visit their web-site at ISCA Website. Go to the Members Only area for the CSI guide.

Examples from my collection:

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

Bill Loeble – A Scouter who collects

Posted on August 21st, 2019 in Legacy Interviews,OA,Shoulder Wear by ramore

From time to time, TSPA handles “named collections”. Actually, we have handled more of these than anyone else. These are collections of such significance that they carry a special place in the hobby based on the collector. Typically these named collections are lifetime or generational collections. That is, collections that span twenty-five years or more to build.

Bil Loeble in his patch room in front of some of the patch plaques from his years as Section Advisor.

Bil Loeble in his patch room in front of some of the patch plaques from his years as Section Advisor.

We are handling one such collection right now, Bill Loeble’s lettered council strip collection. The patches will speak for themselves but let me share with you some of his background. For as significant as his collections are, what he has done for Scouting and our youth is more significant.

Bill joined Scouts in 1954 and became an Eagle Scout in 1956. He attended Philmont the following year. He served on Camp Shenandoah’s (VA) staff for several years starting in 1958. He was inducted into Shenandoah lodge in 1959.

While attending the 1960 National Jamboree in Colorado Springs, CO he got the collecting bug. His OA trading flap was the Shenandoah 258 F1 which was a one color flap. He mentioned it didn’t trade well when compared to Blue Heron or Catawba and he could only get a few as they were highly restricted. We laughed though that it would be nice to have some of those 258’s back.

He served on the staff of the 1964 National Jamboree. He started with OA patches but in ’72 when council shoulder patches started coming out he added those to his collecting interests. He collected shoulder insignia going forward (CSPs) and backwards (RWS) in time amassing the largest such collection in the country.

Picture of waterfront buddy tags for Bill and his son.

Picture of waterfront buddy tags for Bill and his son.

Bill served in multiple leadership roles in multiple councils including Central SC, Indian Waters, and Atlanta Area Councils. He also served in multiple leadership roles within the Order of the Arrow from Chapter Advisor to Southern Region Chairman and member of the National OA Committee. He was awarded his Vigil in Muscogee 221 in Indian Waters Council South Carolina.

IMG_2107

Bill has received numerous awards and recognitions over the years but he does not dwell on them. Of note though, Bill is one of the few collectors to have been awarded the Silver Buffalo. The only others that come to mind are Dr. Hal Yocum and Tico Perez. Bill is now a 65 year veteran of Scouting.

And lest you think Bill’s no longer collecting, here’s his patch room today.

IMG_1094

Birmingham Area WBS Confirmed

Posted on July 25th, 2013 in Hobby Trends,KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

I was talking with ISCA column editor Blake Keasey about a recent acquisition. How is it that 40 years or longer after the fact, these were phased out when CSPs came in, we are still discovering new red and white council strips or in this case a Sea Scout white and blue council strip? Up to this point this Birmingham Area C/Alabama strip has been unreported. That means neither Art Hyman nor Rob Kutz had it reported to them. Nor Bruce Raver. Nor Blake. Some of these have got to be real hens teeth. But its also why this collecting area is both fun and legitimate (that’s on my mind with all of the new, crude issues coming out for the 2013 Jamboree). They could be ordered as few as a “half order” or six.

For Your Information by Paul Myers in ASTA

 

Senior collector Paul Myers of Goshen, IN was at the recent Calumet Council Memorial Day Trade-o-ree. Paul is a former editor of the Trader magazine in the 1960s. In the 1990s he wrote a regular column for ASTA, the America Scout Traders Association, which merged with NSCA to form ISCA the national group today. At the TOR Paul was handing out a compilation of the articles he wrote for ASTA. It is now contained in a PDF below. It covers over 75 topics of Scouting collectibles. Not in depth necessarily but my guess is that even veteran collectors will learn something knew from going through these pages.

The topics include:

  • Amaquonsippi trail patches
  • US Grant Pilgrimage patches
  • Lincoln Pilgrimage patches
  • Contest medals
  • Henderson Award System
  • Belt Stencils
  • Colored Background Service Stars
  • BSA Anniversary Week
  • Ribbon Pin Bars
  • 100% Duty
  • Standard Church Troop Bars
  • Original Twelve Regions
  • OA Chapter Flaps
  • Early Registration Cards
  • Scout Emergency Units
  • Recruiter Strips
  • Scout Diaries
  • Boy Rangers of America
  • District Badges
  • Region 7 Hoe Down
  • Sweater, swim suit, hat and jacket badges
  • Veteran Emblems
  • Explorer Top Awards
  • Presidents Awards & Quality Unit
  • SeniorScout Titles
  • Civic Service
  • Overseas Travel Badges
  • Service Library
  • WW 1 War Service Medals
  • National Service Camps
  • Boy Scout Bands
  • Tenure in Scout Camp
  • Service Troops
  • Jamboree Staff Positions
  • Jamboree Participation Awards
  • Jamboree Contingent items
  • Jamboree Shoulder Identification
  • 1950 Jamboree Prototypes
  • Variations in Jamboree Patches and Neckerchiefs
  • Jamboree Region Items
  • Strengthen the Arm of Liberty Program
  • Take Me Home Folders
  • Scout Straight Knives
  • Scoutmaster’s Key
  • Cub Scouting
  • First Class Hat Pins
  • Patrol Identification
  • Folding Pocket Knives
  • OA Chapter Badges
  • Scout Rings
  • Pin Back Buttons
  • State Strips
  • Early Camp Honor Societies
  • Philadelphia District Badges
  • Region Standard Camp Badges
  • Philmont Contingent Patches
  • Merit Badges
  • Boycraft Co. Booklets
  • 10 Year Program Award
  • Sea Scout Ships

Boy Scout Memorabilia Information

Southern New Jersey Council merging into Burlington

Posted on November 24th, 2012 in BSA Info,Hobby News,OA,Shoulder Wear by ramore

From long time collector Ted Packer, also former Council President for Burlington County Council:

Southern New Jersey council has merged into Burlington County Council. The vote by both councils was on the 19th. It will be effective on 1/1/2013. We will be choosing a new name in the near future & the OA Lodges will be combining by the end of 2013.

Imperial-Yuma RWS 1/2 Strip at $676

Posted on September 17th, 2012 in RWS by ramore

Sometimes things slip by on eBay. And some times they don’t such as this Imperial-Yuma red and white half strip.

The lister, a non-Scout consignment house, did not state that this was the name of a council although did have “council strip”. Also did not use “red and white strip” in the title or listing details. Still, the item brought $676 (Book estimate: #9 rating – $765 – $935.) Very respectable showing. IMHO

 

Anthracite/C RWS Brings over $1,000

Posted on August 22nd, 2012 in OA,RWS by ramore

At first blush this shirt is not too eye catching. It contains a 316 Quekolis S1 first flap but the more valuable piece is the red and white strip on the left sleeve. What’s nice is the OA flap helps date when the RWS was used – circa late 1950s.

 

This is a “9” rated RWS putting it in the upper tier. There is a much more common version with ‘PENNA.’ on the second line. The shirt brought $1,477.52. The S1 mint would be worth around $300 so the rest of the value is in the strip. Nice. I’m sure seller was surprised.

Fun with Community Strips

Posted on February 24th, 2012 in KRS and others,RWS by ramore

A friend just shared these displays of his community strips. He got several from us. What I like about this is the education opportunity. The patches aren’t just sitting in a binder and its easy to understand. He’s taken it a step further by adding the map to give it a visible element as well. Nice going.


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