Collecting Boy Scout Council Shoulder Patches – CSPs

Posted on September 14th, 2023 in Baden-Powell,BSA Info,CSP,Jamborees,Legacy Interviews,RWS by ramore

We are handling the council shoulder patch collection for long time collector Bob Walton of North Carolina. The collection is special in it’s own right. It is among the top 5 (3?) such collections in the country and arguably the deepest in some of its specific themes. It is what we call a “generational collection” as it represents over 20 years of collecting. His collection is near complete in first issue CSPs. I call these the “rookie cards” of the hobby. His collection includes virtually all of the toughest of first issues. It is one of the most extensive Eagle Scout CSP collections we have ever seen (and we’ve seen a lot.)

But I’m burying the lede here. What is the most significant message here is that we are not selling this for Bob. We are selling it for Cape Fear Council, BSA. Bob has donated this whole collection to the Scouts for the council’s restricted endowment fund! He will be helping the hobby as today’s collectors will have a chance to pick up needs that rarely come available as there are so few. He will also be helping to assure that Scouting continues going forward developing today’s youth that will become tomorrow’s leaders!

While Bob was here we shot a couple of interviews. The first part discusses his collecting history and a few of the special issues in his collection.

Attending the 1957 Jamborees

In the first part Bob mentions starting his collecting in 1981 at the BSA National Jamboree that year. This wasn’t his first jamboree. Bob attended the 1957 BSA National Jamboree AND the 1957 World Jamboree! We did a second part where we go over those experiences and what it was like to start from Valley Forge and head to England and Europe.

The 1957 World Jamboree was an “extra” jamboree (my term). The prior World Jamboree was in 1955. Normally jamborees are four years apart. What made 1957 special is it was the 50th anniversary of the founding of Scouting and the 100th anniversary of the birth of Lord Baden Powell. Bob recounts seeing the young Queen Elizabeth and her husband Prince Phillip as they toured the entire jamboree site as well as other signatory experiences that such an event offers to the world’s youth.

Here’s the video.

Collecting Military Base Strips

Posted on November 19th, 2019 in KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

In prior posts, I’ve talked about collecting lettered shoulder insignia (LSI formerly known as collecting RWS – red and white strips). See here, here, and here. With our handling of the Bill Loeble collection we are offering the best military base strip (MBS) collection ever assembled. MBS are a specialized area of LSI. They look like community strips in most cases but actually reflect locations where the US, and the BSA, had presence around the world.

I view this as a highly legitimate, albeit tough, collecting area of our hobby. Most items were made in very limited quantities. Even to this day we are still discovering unknown issues even though they were in general last made in 1972 so folks have had 50 years or more to identify them

I recorded an informational video as it is easier to show issues and aspects of this area of collecting.

Collecting the world of these, and not sure anyone has ever completed this as I think Bill got the furthest, is a heck of a challenge but that’s what makes it fun. Some ways to start though might be:

  • Collect the bases in your state
  • Collect the bases in your region
  • Collect a single service branch
  • Collect just outside of the USA
  • Collect the red and white issues
  • Collect the odd colors that pre-date the red and whites (i.e., pre-1953).

They make a wonderful display. They’ve not been faked although there are some modern re-issues as council shoulder patches just don’t do justice for units at these locations. Have fun!

P.S. Some have asked where the ratings come from. We’re using the ones published by ISCA, the Interenational Scout Collectors Association. Here’s a link to their web-site and the guide. It is free to download for members.

Collecting the patches before CSPs

Posted on August 27th, 2019 in CSP,Hobby Trends,KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

One of the most widely collected areas in our hobby are council shoulder patches (CSPs). Every Scout can wear one. Most can be acquired for very little cost and are actively traded. With councils issuing so many special versions for recognition and such it can make collecting them a challenge. They are soon coming up on their 50th birthday as they became official uniform wear circa 1972.

The thing is, CSPs aren’t the first council (or community) identification shoulder wear. That would be what are now referred to as “Lettered Shoulder Patches” or LSPs. For the longest of times we referred to this whole area of collecting as red and white strips (RWS). I think it is because they were the patches, I’m dating myself, we wore on our Scout uniforms. The thing is, there were colors before RWS but that pre-dates almost all of today’s collectors. Here is some history on these and why they are so fun to collect.

Why collect these?

  • They are fun. Although plain in colors and design, they are easy to understand and distinctive in their own way. Some turn out easy to come by and others can be excrutiatingly hard to even see let alone acquire.
  • They tell the story of Scouting. Many councils never had CSPs. We too often forget that council boundaries were set not only before the internet but before the interstate. As mobility improved, territories (think councils) could come together to pool resources and professional talent.
  • They add depth to a collection. There was a transition where most issues were without state identification to then including the state(s). This seemed to have happened in the late 1960s. And mistakes did happen although usually are quite rare.
  • They show the reach of BSA truly spanning the globe where American’s were present.
  • There are variations but not anywhere to the extent we have today with CSPs. For most councils, there was just one version of lettered shoulder wear.
  • They haven’t been faked much. And the fakes that have been made are distinctive from the real patches as these were last issued in the age of cotton thread rather and Swiss-style loom embroidery.

Why so tough?

I have been told that a “full order” could be as few as a dozen strips with the minimum order being half that. That is, a council could order as few as six of one lettered shoulder patch.

For some of these, they are “gauze backed” which might well mean that they were stiched up one at a time for what was needed. For some of these, there may have only been one or two patchs made.

Some of these were only worn by council level professional staff and volunteers. Some were used for contingents to national jamborees and a few for world jamborees.

What is their history?

For the first 18 years of BSA, there was no authorized community or council identification. It was not until 1928 that they came into the catalog for some communities and 1930 for councils. I am of the opinion it was due to regional and national trainging conferences for professional staff that drove the need for council identification. Up to that point, other than world jamborees there were not multi-council gatherings. If everyone is from the same council, why does one need council identification?

From the first collecting book for red and whites by Art Hyman and Rob Kutz:

  • 1928 Community strips authorized (khaki and red, KRS )
  • 1930 Council strips authorized (khaki and red) for council Scouters only
  • Early 1940’s size increased and other colors authorized
    • Dark blue and gold (yellow) for Cub Scouts (BYS)
    • White and blue (WBS) and blue and white (BWS) for Sea Scouts
    • Green and brown (GBS) for Explorer Scouts
    • Blue and blue for (BBS) for Air Scouts
  • Starting in 1952, the specific uniform colors were phased out (except for Sea Scouts) converting everyone to red and white (RWS).
  • 1972 discontinued although a few councils kept using a version and some commerative or fundraising issues have come out since.

Actually the hobby identifies these days the difference between the pre-World War 2 uniform color of “tan kahki” to post WW2 color of “green khaki”. The earlier ones are referred to as tan and red strips (TRS).

Why the transition to CSPs?

From a regional retired Scout Executive who as an SE at the time of transition in 1972 from red and whites to CSPs he said that councils could get stuck with inventory for a unit that came and went. Plus they took up a lot of space to store as inventory. With CSPs there only needed to be one patch for everyone. Now I think the Scouts lost something with this transition. I think it would be interesting if we went back to community strips and with current patch making technology, it might be well doable.

Other resources:

If you are a member of the International Scout Collectors Association, ISCA, you can download for free the Council Shoulder Insignia guide for free which inculdes full chapters on collecting lettered shoulder patches. Visit their web-site at ISCA Website. Go to the Members Only area for the CSI guide.

Examples from my collection:

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council khaki and red strip

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council red and white with type 1 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Portage Trails Council RWS with type 2 border.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Second edition of Portage Trails Council with Michigan added.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different versions of states strips.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

Examples of different styles of community strips for the same community.

Birmingham Area WBS Confirmed

Posted on July 25th, 2013 in Hobby Trends,KRS and others,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

I was talking with ISCA column editor Blake Keasey about a recent acquisition. How is it that 40 years or longer after the fact, these were phased out when CSPs came in, we are still discovering new red and white council strips or in this case a Sea Scout white and blue council strip? Up to this point this Birmingham Area C/Alabama strip has been unreported. That means neither Art Hyman nor Rob Kutz had it reported to them. Nor Bruce Raver. Nor Blake. Some of these have got to be real hens teeth. But its also why this collecting area is both fun and legitimate (that’s on my mind with all of the new, crude issues coming out for the 2013 Jamboree). They could be ordered as few as a “half order” or six.

For Your Information by Paul Myers in ASTA

 

Senior collector Paul Myers of Goshen, IN was at the recent Calumet Council Memorial Day Trade-o-ree. Paul is a former editor of the Trader magazine in the 1960s. In the 1990s he wrote a regular column for ASTA, the America Scout Traders Association, which merged with NSCA to form ISCA the national group today. At the TOR Paul was handing out a compilation of the articles he wrote for ASTA. It is now contained in a PDF below. It covers over 75 topics of Scouting collectibles. Not in depth necessarily but my guess is that even veteran collectors will learn something knew from going through these pages.

The topics include:

  • Amaquonsippi trail patches
  • US Grant Pilgrimage patches
  • Lincoln Pilgrimage patches
  • Contest medals
  • Henderson Award System
  • Belt Stencils
  • Colored Background Service Stars
  • BSA Anniversary Week
  • Ribbon Pin Bars
  • 100% Duty
  • Standard Church Troop Bars
  • Original Twelve Regions
  • OA Chapter Flaps
  • Early Registration Cards
  • Scout Emergency Units
  • Recruiter Strips
  • Scout Diaries
  • Boy Rangers of America
  • District Badges
  • Region 7 Hoe Down
  • Sweater, swim suit, hat and jacket badges
  • Veteran Emblems
  • Explorer Top Awards
  • Presidents Awards & Quality Unit
  • SeniorScout Titles
  • Civic Service
  • Overseas Travel Badges
  • Service Library
  • WW 1 War Service Medals
  • National Service Camps
  • Boy Scout Bands
  • Tenure in Scout Camp
  • Service Troops
  • Jamboree Staff Positions
  • Jamboree Participation Awards
  • Jamboree Contingent items
  • Jamboree Shoulder Identification
  • 1950 Jamboree Prototypes
  • Variations in Jamboree Patches and Neckerchiefs
  • Jamboree Region Items
  • Strengthen the Arm of Liberty Program
  • Take Me Home Folders
  • Scout Straight Knives
  • Scoutmaster’s Key
  • Cub Scouting
  • First Class Hat Pins
  • Patrol Identification
  • Folding Pocket Knives
  • OA Chapter Badges
  • Scout Rings
  • Pin Back Buttons
  • State Strips
  • Early Camp Honor Societies
  • Philadelphia District Badges
  • Region Standard Camp Badges
  • Philmont Contingent Patches
  • Merit Badges
  • Boycraft Co. Booklets
  • 10 Year Program Award
  • Sea Scout Ships

Boy Scout Memorabilia Information

Imperial-Yuma RWS 1/2 Strip at $676

Posted on September 17th, 2012 in RWS by ramore

Sometimes things slip by on eBay. And some times they don’t such as this Imperial-Yuma red and white half strip.

The lister, a non-Scout consignment house, did not state that this was the name of a council although did have “council strip”. Also did not use “red and white strip” in the title or listing details. Still, the item brought $676 (Book estimate: #9 rating – $765 – $935.) Very respectable showing. IMHO

 

Anthracite/C RWS Brings over $1,000

Posted on August 22nd, 2012 in OA,RWS by ramore

At first blush this shirt is not too eye catching. It contains a 316 Quekolis S1 first flap but the more valuable piece is the red and white strip on the left sleeve. What’s nice is the OA flap helps date when the RWS was used – circa late 1950s.

 

This is a “9” rated RWS putting it in the upper tier. There is a much more common version with ‘PENNA.’ on the second line. The shirt brought $1,477.52. The S1 mint would be worth around $300 so the rest of the value is in the strip. Nice. I’m sure seller was surprised.

Fun with Community Strips

Posted on February 24th, 2012 in KRS and others,RWS by ramore

A friend just shared these displays of his community strips. He got several from us. What I like about this is the education opportunity. The patches aren’t just sitting in a binder and its easy to understand. He’s taken it a step further by adding the map to give it a visible element as well. Nice going.

Fun Finds Baluga 538

Posted on January 9th, 2012 in OA,RWS by ramore

For good and bad, eBay is our daily sell-o-ree. eBay keeps forcing collectibles, not just Scout patches, into the same process as commodity, off-the-shelf products. Still, we put up with it for the occaisional find. For me it was recently picking up a variety of the Clark Air Base red and white strip made-in-theater (MIT, which means was made locally in an overseas location.)

In the lot the seller pictured some of the Scout’s membership cards. Previously I wrote about fun side collections that may not cost much, nor be worth much, but are any way fun. The card shown was a Hinode Goya 498 (consistent with the Air Base). The picture showed multiple cards but they were covered up. When I received them one of the cards was a Baluga 538 membership card. Although rarer than the flap it certainly is not as valuable (and no, don’t suggest that I could make my collection by getting a bunch of blanks and writing names in – not kosher and not confirmable.)

New FSC Boundaries Established for Michigan

Posted on November 9th, 2011 in BSA Info,CSP,Hobby Trends,RWS,Shoulder Wear by ramore

The Board for the new council here in Michigan approved at its first meeting new Field Service Council (FSC) boundaries. FSCs are a new concept in the Scouting structure that we’re developing. Although there is one legal entity there are at this time four (4) local delivery entities who’s primary purpose is unit support. The Coordinating Council, also sometimes referred to as the “Administrative Council”, integrates back office functions and achieves economies of scale that we could not achieve as individual councils. Basically we have been silos working within our boundaries. One of the goals of the Crossroads Recommendation is to not compete with each other but compete  to bring more youth to Scouting.

Here’s the new boundaries approved at the meeting. When will these be effective? Soon but still being worked out.

Note – the boundaries between FSCs is dotted. These will flex over time depending upon who can best serve the needs of a given unit. Within Field Service Councils we may well have additional Community Service Councils that are even more focused on unit service – MMM – membership, manpower and of course money. We’ve had discussions where our shoulder wear will change to the community level. Not as specific as red and white community strips that collectors know but more specific than council shoulder strips we’re used to seeing.

 

The criteria used are on this slide. The Unit Serving Executives to Total Available Youth ratio is about a third better than the current ‘gold standard’ for the national dashboard metrics in Journey to Excellence.

 


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